From walkerjl at charter.net  Mon Jul  1 07:32:56 2019
From: walkerjl at charter.net (Jeff Walker)
Date: Mon, 01 Jul 2019 07:32:56 -0700
Subject: Brake Woes
In-Reply-To: <mailman.3.1561921204.9462.gpzlist@lists.micapeak.com>
Message-ID: <3e5e1f19-b471-44e7-a83e-f2b41884cb7a@email.android.com>

   Sounds like you need to look at your brakes master cylinder and flush
   the lines very, very well. If it were me I would rebuild the master
   cylinder, then probably carefully disassemble the front calipers to
   clean them remorselessly, spotlessly well. If the seals show no obvious
   wear and are still pliable then I would try to reuse them.
   The issue is that brake fluid is hydrophilic and will suck humidity
   right out of the air. Those water vapor molecules accumulate to the
   point of condensing into liquid water, which then causes corrosion and
   can also boil again as it accumulates at the lowest point in the
   system, in the calipers. You will find a bunch of dark grey "fluff" in
   the fluid that is actually corrosion products. That is what needs to be
   cleaned out before it damages the seals. If you have no leakage, then
   the caliper seals aren't leaking. However the master cylinder seals can
   leak by without any visible leakage out. The master cylinder always
   wears out first because it has the largest amount of travel when
   activated.
   One last thing: what condition are the brake lines in? If they are the
   original OEM rubber ones, you need to ditch them immediately and get
   some metal braided lines. The rubber lines stretch.
   Jeff in Washington
   '96 Black with over 130K miles and still running strong.
   On Jun 30, 2019 12:00 PM, gpzlist-request at lists.micapeak.com wrote:

     Hello my friends,
     I did not want to let the warmth go without taking the GPZ out for
     an
     hour..so I went up the Salève. On top of the Hill the front brake
     did not
     free up after breaking; it staid in a blocking position for some
     time; I
     pulled the lever a couple of times and with some mechanical noise
     the brake
     loosened. And did not work anymore (I could pull the lever, no
     resistance).
     I saw smoke around the brake but could not make out any damage (I
     could
     only get off the bike later..).
     I descended slowly and the brake gained "power" again;  once on a
     level
     ground I stopped the bike to inspect the damage. The only thing I
     could see
     was that the area where the brake line connects to the brake,
     everything
     was squeaky clean (on the right side, the left side was in proper
     dirty
     condition).
     - It was very warm for our region
     - I did not abuse the brake
     - I had some altitude (3000ft)
     Could it be that the brake fluid got "too hot" and finally the joint
     let go?
     What's your thoughts?
     Thanks
     Alex

     --
     --
     http://alexfinger.ch for pgp key etc

     ------------------------------

     Message: 2
     Date: Sun, 30 Jun 2019 10:44:27 -0600
     From: Art Johnson <arthjohnson270 at gmail.com>
     To: GPZ List <gpzlist at lists.micapeak.com>
     Subject: Re: Brake woes
     Message-ID: <39B2BFE5-3479-477C-B983-A951413F2360 at gmail.com>
     Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8

     Good that you got away without accident.
     Any leakage or hose failure would disable the brakes. Fluid boil
     might have caused lockup, cooldown release.
     Time for brake maintenance, caliper clean, pad inspection, fluid
     change, replace banjo bolt washers, any defective items, operation
     check.

     Sent from my iPhone

     > On Jun 30, 2019, at 9:58 AM, Alexander Finger
     <af at genevainformation.ch> wrote:
     >
     > Hello my friends,
     > I did not want to let the warmth go without taking the GPZ out for
     an
     > hour..so I went up the Salève. On top of the Hill the front brake
     did not
     > free up after breaking; it staid in a blocking position for some
     time; I
     > pulled the lever a couple of times and with some mechanical noise
     the brake
     > loosened. And did not work anymore (I could pull the lever, no
     resistance).
     > I saw smoke around the brake but could not make out any damage (I
     could
     > only get off the bike later..).
     > I descended slowly and the brake gained "power" again;  once on a
     level
     > ground I stopped the bike to inspect the damage. The only thing I
     could see
     > was that the area where the brake line connects to the brake,
     everything
     > was squeaky clean (on the right side, the left side was in proper
     dirty
     > condition).
     > - It was very warm for our region
     > - I did not abuse the brake
     > - I had some altitude (3000ft)
     > Could it be that the brake fluid got "too hot" and finally the
     joint let go?
     > What's your thoughts?
     > Thanks
     > Alex
     >
     > --
     > --
     > http://alexfinger.ch for pgp key etc
     >
     ____________________________________________________________________
     __
     > GENERAL GPZList MAILING LIST INFORMATION:
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     > http://lists.micapeak.com/mailman/listinfo/gpzlist
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     ____________________________________________________________________
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     ------------------------------

     Message: 3
     Date: Sun, 30 Jun 2019 19:49:16 +0200
     From: Alexander Finger <af at genevainformation.ch>
     To: GPZ List <gpzlist at lists.micapeak.com>
     Subject: Re: Brake woes
     Message-ID:
     <CAKO=xBsVjFM_DPMQxCXqO2i0JqmLdKkqae37=gsqGrU_tskwjA at mail.gmail.com>
     Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"

     I was slow when they blocked. So it's off to the dealer for a brake
     job
     then..I hope it'll not cost more than the downpayment for a new zzr.

     Art Johnson <arthjohnson270 at gmail.com> schrieb am So., 30. Juni
     2019, 18:44:

     > Good that you got away without accident.
     > Any leakage or hose failure would disable the brakes. Fluid boil
     might
     > have caused lockup, cooldown release.
     > Time for brake maintenance, caliper clean, pad inspection, fluid
     change,
     > replace banjo bolt washers, any defective items, operation check.
     >
     > Sent from my iPhone
     >
     > > On Jun 30, 2019, at 9:58 AM, Alexander Finger
     <af at genevainformation.ch>
     > wrote:
     > >
     > > Hello my friends,
     > > I did not want to let the warmth go without taking the GPZ out
     for an
     > > hour..so I went up the Salève. On top of the Hill the front
     brake did not
     > > free up after breaking; it staid in a blocking position for some
     time; I
     > > pulled the lever a couple of times and with some mechanical
     noise the
     > brake
     > > loosened. And did not work anymore (I could pull the lever, no
     > resistance).
     > > I saw smoke around the brake but could not make out any damage
     (I could
     > > only get off the bike later..).
     > > I descended slowly and the brake gained "power" again;  once on
     a level
     > > ground I stopped the bike to inspect the damage. The only thing
     I could
     > see
     > > was that the area where the brake line connects to the brake,
     everything
     > > was squeaky clean (on the right side, the left side was in
     proper dirty
     > > condition).
     > > - It was very warm for our region
     > > - I did not abuse the brake
     > > - I had some altitude (3000ft)
     > > Could it be that the brake fluid got "too hot" and finally the
     joint let
     > go?
     > > What's your thoughts?
     > > Thanks
     > > Alex
     > >
     > > --
     > > --
     > > http://alexfinger.ch for pgp key etc
     > >
     ____________________________________________________________________
     __
     > > GENERAL GPZList MAILING LIST INFORMATION:
     > > This is from the GPZList mailing list.
     GPZList at lists.micapeak.com
     > > http://lists.micapeak.com/mailman/listinfo/gpzlist
     > > You subscribed to this mailing list. Therefore, you solicited
     all
     > > mail that you receive from this list. Therefore, ANY mail that
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     > > receive from this list is, by definition, NOT Spam, and if you
     report
     > > it as such, you are violating the lists.micapeak.com terms of
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     ____________________________________________________________________
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     >

     ------------------------------

     Message: 4
     Date: Sun, 30 Jun 2019 12:30:53 -0600
     From: Art Johnson <arthjohnson270 at gmail.com>
     To: GPZ List <gpzlist at lists.micapeak.com>
     Subject: Re: Brake woes
     Message-ID: <D9B3F515-0AA7-4603-867C-A3F9C54ED4D1 at gmail.com>
     Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8

     Hope it works out for you Alex. Fun fast rides for cheap thrills.
     I left my Gpz in Venezia....

     The GPz is reliable. Hope to do more Euro adventures over the next 5
     yrs. Croatia and Rome this Fall. Then Spain, Portugal and S. France,
     next. Work north to Sweden, Norway, UK and Ireland.

     Bought a 2007 Zx14 (ZZR) for home. The front brakes are so much
     better.
     Going thru the maintenance routine, coolant, brake fluid change,
     sparkplugs, valve shims, air filter. Tires and chain good. Tsukigi
     4-1 pipe and ECU reprogram next.

     Sent from my iPhone

     > On Jun 30, 2019, at 11:49 AM, Alexander Finger
     <af at genevainformation.ch> wrote:
     >
     > I was slow when they blocked. So it's off to the dealer for a
     brake job
     > then..I hope it'll not cost more than the downpayment for a new
     zzr.
     >
     > Art Johnson <arthjohnson270 at gmail.com> schrieb am So., 30. Juni
     2019, 18:44:
     >
     >> Good that you got away without accident.
     >> Any leakage or hose failure would disable the brakes. Fluid boil
     might
     >> have caused lockup, cooldown release.
     >> Time for brake maintenance, caliper clean, pad inspection, fluid
     change,
     >> replace banjo bolt washers, any defective items, operation check.
     >>
     >> Sent from my iPhone
     >>
     >>> On Jun 30, 2019, at 9:58 AM, Alexander Finger
     <af at genevainformation.ch>
     >> wrote:
     >>>
     >>> Hello my friends,
     >>> I did not want to let the warmth go without taking the GPZ out
     for an
     >>> hour..so I went up the Salève. On top of the Hill the front
     brake did not
     >>> free up after breaking; it staid in a blocking position for some
     time; I
     >>> pulled the lever a couple of times and with some mechanical
     noise the
     >> brake
     >>> loosened. And did not work anymore (I could pull the lever, no
     >> resistance).
     >>> I saw smoke around the brake but could not make out any damage
     (I could
     >>> only get off the bike later..).
     >>> I descended slowly and the brake gained "power" again;  once on
     a level
     >>> ground I stopped the bike to inspect the damage. The only thing
     I could
     >> see
     >>> was that the area where the brake line connects to the brake,
     everything
     >>> was squeaky clean (on the right side, the left side was in
     proper dirty
     >>> condition).
     >>> - It was very warm for our region
     >>> - I did not abuse the brake
     >>> - I had some altitude (3000ft)
     >>> Could it be that the brake fluid got "too hot" and finally the
     joint let
     >> go?
     >>> What's your thoughts?
     >>> Thanks
     >>> Alex
     >>>
     >>> --
     >>> --
     >>> http://alexfinger.ch for pgp key etc
     >>>
     ____________________________________________________________________
     __
     >>> GENERAL GPZList MAILING LIST INFORMATION:
     >>> This is from the GPZList mailing list.
     GPZList at lists.micapeak.com
     >>> http://lists.micapeak.com/mailman/listinfo/gpzlist
     >>> You subscribed to this mailing list. Therefore, you solicited
     all
     >>> mail that you receive from this list. Therefore, ANY mail that
     you
     >>> receive from this list is, by definition, NOT Spam, and if you
     report
     >>> it as such, you are violating the lists.micapeak.com terms of
     service.
     >>>
     >>> To unsubscribe, you may send email to
     >> gpzlist-unsubscribe at lists.micapeak.com
     >>>
     ____________________________________________________________________
     __
     >>> YOUR PERSONAL SUBSCRIBER OPTIONS:
     >>> Unsubscribe or choose new options at
     >>>
     >>
     http://lists.micapeak.com/mailman/options/gpzlist/arthjohnson270%40g
     mail.com
     >>> You are subscribed at the email address arthjohnson270 at gmail.com
     >>>
     ____________________________________________________________________
     __
     >>
     ____________________________________________________________________
     __
     >> GENERAL GPZList MAILING LIST INFORMATION:
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     >> http://lists.micapeak.com/mailman/listinfo/gpzlist
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     >> mail that you receive from this list. Therefore, ANY mail that
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     >> receive from this list is, by definition, NOT Spam, and if you
     report
     >> it as such, you are violating the lists.micapeak.com terms of
     service.
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     >>
     ____________________________________________________________________
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     >>
     >
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     End of GPZList Digest, Vol 141, Issue 1
     ***************************************

From af at genevainformation.ch  Mon Jul  1 09:13:10 2019
From: af at genevainformation.ch (Alexander Finger)
Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2019 18:13:10 +0200
Subject: Brake Woes
In-Reply-To: <3e5e1f19-b471-44e7-a83e-f2b41884cb7a@email.android.com>
References: <mailman.3.1561921204.9462.gpzlist@lists.micapeak.com>
 <3e5e1f19-b471-44e7-a83e-f2b41884cb7a@email.android.com>
Message-ID: <CAKO=xBu+_dG=-gjvNpvF=n4yA6d1tRU7fqN=Xr8U0GsGLG11nA@mail.gmail.com>

Thanks, I'll have them change the lines..
rgds
Alex

Jeff Walker <walkerjl at charter.net> schrieb am Mo., 1. Juli 2019, 16:33:

>    Sounds like you need to look at your brakes master cylinder and flush
>    the lines very, very well. If it were me I would rebuild the master
>    cylinder, then probably carefully disassemble the front calipers to
>    clean them remorselessly, spotlessly well. If the seals show no obvious
>    wear and are still pliable then I would try to reuse them.
>    The issue is that brake fluid is hydrophilic and will suck humidity
>    right out of the air. Those water vapor molecules accumulate to the
>    point of condensing into liquid water, which then causes corrosion and
>    can also boil again as it accumulates at the lowest point in the
>    system, in the calipers. You will find a bunch of dark grey "fluff" in
>    the fluid that is actually corrosion products. That is what needs to be
>    cleaned out before it damages the seals. If you have no leakage, then
>    the caliper seals aren't leaking. However the master cylinder seals can
>    leak by without any visible leakage out. The master cylinder always
>    wears out first because it has the largest amount of travel when
>    activated.
>    One last thing: what condition are the brake lines in? If they are the
>    original OEM rubber ones, you need to ditch them immediately and get
>    some metal braided lines. The rubber lines stretch.
>    Jeff in Washington
>    '96 Black with over 130K miles and still running strong.
>    On Jun 30, 2019 12:00 PM, gpzlist-request at lists.micapeak.com wrote:
>
>      Hello my friends,
>      I did not want to let the warmth go without taking the GPZ out for
>      an
>      hour..so I went up the Salève. On top of the Hill the front brake
>      did not
>      free up after breaking; it staid in a blocking position for some
>      time; I
>      pulled the lever a couple of times and with some mechanical noise
>      the brake
>      loosened. And did not work anymore (I could pull the lever, no
>      resistance).
>      I saw smoke around the brake but could not make out any damage (I
>      could
>      only get off the bike later..).
>      I descended slowly and the brake gained "power" again;  once on a
>      level
>      ground I stopped the bike to inspect the damage. The only thing I
>      could see
>      was that the area where the brake line connects to the brake,
>      everything
>      was squeaky clean (on the right side, the left side was in proper
>      dirty
>      condition).
>      - It was very warm for our region
>      - I did not abuse the brake
>      - I had some altitude (3000ft)
>      Could it be that the brake fluid got "too hot" and finally the joint
>      let go?
>      What's your thoughts?
>      Thanks
>      Alex
>
>      --
>      --
>      http://alexfinger.ch for pgp key etc
>
>      ------------------------------
>
>      Message: 2
>      Date: Sun, 30 Jun 2019 10:44:27 -0600
>      From: Art Johnson <arthjohnson270 at gmail.com>
>      To: GPZ List <gpzlist at lists.micapeak.com>
>      Subject: Re: Brake woes
>      Message-ID: <39B2BFE5-3479-477C-B983-A951413F2360 at gmail.com>
>      Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
>
>      Good that you got away without accident.
>      Any leakage or hose failure would disable the brakes. Fluid boil
>      might have caused lockup, cooldown release.
>      Time for brake maintenance, caliper clean, pad inspection, fluid
>      change, replace banjo bolt washers, any defective items, operation
>      check.
>
>      Sent from my iPhone
>
>      > On Jun 30, 2019, at 9:58 AM, Alexander Finger
>      <af at genevainformation.ch> wrote:
>      >
>      > Hello my friends,
>      > I did not want to let the warmth go without taking the GPZ out for
>      an
>      > hour..so I went up the Salève. On top of the Hill the front brake
>      did not
>      > free up after breaking; it staid in a blocking position for some
>      time; I
>      > pulled the lever a couple of times and with some mechanical noise
>      the brake
>      > loosened. And did not work anymore (I could pull the lever, no
>      resistance).
>      > I saw smoke around the brake but could not make out any damage (I
>      could
>      > only get off the bike later..).
>      > I descended slowly and the brake gained "power" again;  once on a
>      level
>      > ground I stopped the bike to inspect the damage. The only thing I
>      could see
>      > was that the area where the brake line connects to the brake,
>      everything
>      > was squeaky clean (on the right side, the left side was in proper
>      dirty
>      > condition).
>      > - It was very warm for our region
>      > - I did not abuse the brake
>      > - I had some altitude (3000ft)
>      > Could it be that the brake fluid got "too hot" and finally the
>      joint let go?
>      > What's your thoughts?
>      > Thanks
>      > Alex
>      >
>      > --
>      > --
>      > http://alexfinger.ch for pgp key etc
>      >
>      ____________________________________________________________________
>      __
>      > GENERAL GPZList MAILING LIST INFORMATION:
>      > This is from the GPZList mailing list. GPZList at lists.micapeak.com
>      > http://lists.micapeak.com/mailman/listinfo/gpzlist
>      > You subscribed to this mailing list. Therefore, you solicited all
>      > mail that you receive from this list. Therefore, ANY mail that you
>      > receive from this list is, by definition, NOT Spam, and if you
>      report
>      > it as such, you are violating the lists.micapeak.com terms of
>      service.
>      >
>      > To unsubscribe, you may send email to
>      gpzlist-unsubscribe at lists.micapeak.com
>      >
>      ____________________________________________________________________
>      __
>      > YOUR PERSONAL SUBSCRIBER OPTIONS:
>      > Unsubscribe or choose new options at
>      >
>      http://lists.micapeak.com/mailman/options/gpzlist/arthjohnson270%40g
>      mail.com
>      > You are subscribed at the email address arthjohnson270 at gmail.com
>      >
>      ____________________________________________________________________
>      __
>
>      ------------------------------
>
>      Message: 3
>      Date: Sun, 30 Jun 2019 19:49:16 +0200
>      From: Alexander Finger <af at genevainformation.ch>
>      To: GPZ List <gpzlist at lists.micapeak.com>
>      Subject: Re: Brake woes
>      Message-ID:
>      <CAKO=xBsVjFM_DPMQxCXqO2i0JqmLdKkqae37=gsqGrU_tskwjA at mail.gmail.com>
>      Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
>
>      I was slow when they blocked. So it's off to the dealer for a brake
>      job
>      then..I hope it'll not cost more than the downpayment for a new zzr.
>
>      Art Johnson <arthjohnson270 at gmail.com> schrieb am So., 30. Juni
>      2019, 18:44:
>
>      > Good that you got away without accident.
>      > Any leakage or hose failure would disable the brakes. Fluid boil
>      might
>      > have caused lockup, cooldown release.
>      > Time for brake maintenance, caliper clean, pad inspection, fluid
>      change,
>      > replace banjo bolt washers, any defective items, operation check.
>      >
>      > Sent from my iPhone
>      >
>      > > On Jun 30, 2019, at 9:58 AM, Alexander Finger
>      <af at genevainformation.ch>
>      > wrote:
>      > >
>      > > Hello my friends,
>      > > I did not want to let the warmth go without taking the GPZ out
>      for an
>      > > hour..so I went up the Salève. On top of the Hill the front
>      brake did not
>      > > free up after breaking; it staid in a blocking position for some
>      time; I
>      > > pulled the lever a couple of times and with some mechanical
>      noise the
>      > brake
>      > > loosened. And did not work anymore (I could pull the lever, no
>      > resistance).
>      > > I saw smoke around the brake but could not make out any damage
>      (I could
>      > > only get off the bike later..).
>      > > I descended slowly and the brake gained "power" again;  once on
>      a level
>      > > ground I stopped the bike to inspect the damage. The only thing
>      I could
>      > see
>      > > was that the area where the brake line connects to the brake,
>      everything
>      > > was squeaky clean (on the right side, the left side was in
>      proper dirty
>      > > condition).
>      > > - It was very warm for our region
>      > > - I did not abuse the brake
>      > > - I had some altitude (3000ft)
>      > > Could it be that the brake fluid got "too hot" and finally the
>      joint let
>      > go?
>      > > What's your thoughts?
>      > > Thanks
>      > > Alex
>      > >
>      > > --
>      > > --
>      > > http://alexfinger.ch for pgp key etc
>      > >
>      ____________________________________________________________________
>      __
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>      ------------------------------
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>      Message: 4
>      Date: Sun, 30 Jun 2019 12:30:53 -0600
>      From: Art Johnson <arthjohnson270 at gmail.com>
>      To: GPZ List <gpzlist at lists.micapeak.com>
>      Subject: Re: Brake woes
>      Message-ID: <D9B3F515-0AA7-4603-867C-A3F9C54ED4D1 at gmail.com>
>      Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
>
>      Hope it works out for you Alex. Fun fast rides for cheap thrills.
>      I left my Gpz in Venezia....
>
>      The GPz is reliable. Hope to do more Euro adventures over the next 5
>      yrs. Croatia and Rome this Fall. Then Spain, Portugal and S. France,
>      next. Work north to Sweden, Norway, UK and Ireland.
>
>      Bought a 2007 Zx14 (ZZR) for home. The front brakes are so much
>      better.
>      Going thru the maintenance routine, coolant, brake fluid change,
>      sparkplugs, valve shims, air filter. Tires and chain good. Tsukigi
>      4-1 pipe and ECU reprogram next.
>
>      Sent from my iPhone
>
>      > On Jun 30, 2019, at 11:49 AM, Alexander Finger
>      <af at genevainformation.ch> wrote:
>      >
>      > I was slow when they blocked. So it's off to the dealer for a
>      brake job
>      > then..I hope it'll not cost more than the downpayment for a new
>      zzr.
>      >
>      > Art Johnson <arthjohnson270 at gmail.com> schrieb am So., 30. Juni
>      2019, 18:44:
>      >
>      >> Good that you got away without accident.
>      >> Any leakage or hose failure would disable the brakes. Fluid boil
>      might
>      >> have caused lockup, cooldown release.
>      >> Time for brake maintenance, caliper clean, pad inspection, fluid
>      change,
>      >> replace banjo bolt washers, any defective items, operation check.
>      >>
>      >> Sent from my iPhone
>      >>
>      >>> On Jun 30, 2019, at 9:58 AM, Alexander Finger
>      <af at genevainformation.ch>
>      >> wrote:
>      >>>
>      >>> Hello my friends,
>      >>> I did not want to let the warmth go without taking the GPZ out
>      for an
>      >>> hour..so I went up the Salève. On top of the Hill the front
>      brake did not
>      >>> free up after breaking; it staid in a blocking position for some
>      time; I
>      >>> pulled the lever a couple of times and with some mechanical
>      noise the
>      >> brake
>      >>> loosened. And did not work anymore (I could pull the lever, no
>      >> resistance).
>      >>> I saw smoke around the brake but could not make out any damage
>      (I could
>      >>> only get off the bike later..).
>      >>> I descended slowly and the brake gained "power" again;  once on
>      a level
>      >>> ground I stopped the bike to inspect the damage. The only thing
>      I could
>      >> see
>      >>> was that the area where the brake line connects to the brake,
>      everything
>      >>> was squeaky clean (on the right side, the left side was in
>      proper dirty
>      >>> condition).
>      >>> - It was very warm for our region
>      >>> - I did not abuse the brake
>      >>> - I had some altitude (3000ft)
>      >>> Could it be that the brake fluid got "too hot" and finally the
>      joint let
>      >> go?
>      >>> What's your thoughts?
>      >>> Thanks
>      >>> Alex
>      >>>
>      >>> --
>      >>> --
>      >>> http://alexfinger.ch for pgp key etc
>      >>>
>      ____________________________________________________________________
>      __
>      >>> GENERAL GPZList MAILING LIST INFORMATION:
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>      GPZList at lists.micapeak.com
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>

From gpz1100abs at gmail.com  Mon Jul  1 14:09:29 2019
From: gpz1100abs at gmail.com (Ped)
Date: Mon, 01 Jul 2019 21:09:29 +0000
Subject: Brake Woes
In-Reply-To: <CAKO=xBu+_dG=-gjvNpvF=n4yA6d1tRU7fqN=Xr8U0GsGLG11nA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.3.1561921204.9462.gpzlist@lists.micapeak.com>
 <3e5e1f19-b471-44e7-a83e-f2b41884cb7a@email.android.com>
 <CAKO=xBu+_dG=-gjvNpvF=n4yA6d1tRU7fqN=Xr8U0GsGLG11nA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <em892d471e-6b37-493f-b2c8-a3c36a9dc034@pedb?rbar>

The front brake is very tolerant and can take A LOT of abuse before 
heating up to the extent that the brake fluid starts boiling. My guess 
is that one or both pistons in one of the calipers was hanging a little 
bit so that is was already very hot when you reached the top and got 
completely stuck when you braked harder. It sounds like your calipers 
need a major overhaul with new O-ring seals and probably also new 
pistons. If you want to have the brake lines replaced at the same time, 
having the dealer do it is probably a good ides. A caliper overhaul 
alone is no big deal and a complete set of spareparts would only cost 
you around 60 Euros. I don't think the master cylinder is to blame.

A few years ago I decided to have the brake lines on mine replaced with 
steel braded lines and I asked the local dealer to do the job. I was 
very disappointed though because the brake lever was at least as spongy 
as before, and I pointed this out to the mechanic; he said that they had 
flushed the system several times in order to get it harder and was 
convinced that there were no air bubbles in the system. He thought the 
calipers were to blame and recommended they be replaced. I could not 
find anything wrong with the calipers, however and tried myself to flush 
the system several times - to no avail. I rode that season with a spongy 
brake that I was not too happy with. During winter maintenance I decided 
to try and flush the system again, this time in accordance with a 
procedure recommended by someone in a Danish forum. I unmounted both 
calipers and hung them up in a piece of string from the ceiling so that 
the calipers were just below the master cylinder. While the wife was 
pouring fresh brake fluid in the master cylinder I used a vacuum pump to 
suck fluid first from one caliper, then the other while at the same time 
tapping lightly on the brake lines with a screwdriver. And bingo! After 
having put everything back together the brake lever was as hard as ever. 
So even mechanics can have a hard time getting all the air out of the 
GPZ's brake system. If the brake lever is anything other than rock hard 
when you get it back, the before mentioned procedure works :)

Ped
'96 "Black Stealth" GPZ
Denmark


------ Original Meddelelse ------
Fra: "Alexander Finger" <af at genevainformation.ch>
Til: "ped" <gpz1100abs at gmail.com>
Sendt: 01-07-2019 18:13:10
Emne: Re: Brake Woes

>Thanks, I'll have them change the lines..
>rgds
>Alex
>
>Jeff Walker <walkerjl at charter.net> schrieb am Mo., 1. Juli 2019, 16:33:
>
>>     Sounds like you need to look at your brakes master cylinder and flush
>>     the lines very, very well. If it were me I would rebuild the master
>>     cylinder, then probably carefully disassemble the front calipers to
>>     clean them remorselessly, spotlessly well. If the seals show no obvious
>>     wear and are still pliable then I would try to reuse them.
>>     The issue is that brake fluid is hydrophilic and will suck humidity
>>     right out of the air. Those water vapor molecules accumulate to the
>>     point of condensing into liquid water, which then causes corrosion and
>>     can also boil again as it accumulates at the lowest point in the
>>     system, in the calipers. You will find a bunch of dark grey "fluff" in
>>     the fluid that is actually corrosion products. That is what needs to be
>>     cleaned out before it damages the seals. If you have no leakage, then
>>     the caliper seals aren't leaking. However the master cylinder seals can
>>     leak by without any visible leakage out. The master cylinder always
>>     wears out first because it has the largest amount of travel when
>>     activated.
>>     One last thing: what condition are the brake lines in? If they are the
>>     original OEM rubber ones, you need to ditch them immediately and get
>>     some metal braided lines. The rubber lines stretch.
>>     Jeff in Washington
>>     '96 Black with over 130K miles and still running strong.
>>     On Jun 30, 2019 12:00 PM, gpzlist-request at lists.micapeak.com wrote:
>>
>>       Hello my friends,
>>       I did not want to let the warmth go without taking the GPZ out for
>>       an
>>       hour..so I went up the Salève. On top of the Hill the front brake
>>       did not
>>       free up after breaking; it staid in a blocking position for some
>>       time; I
>>       pulled the lever a couple of times and with some mechanical noise
>>       the brake
>>       loosened. And did not work anymore (I could pull the lever, no
>>       resistance).
>>       I saw smoke around the brake but could not make out any damage (I
>>       could
>>       only get off the bike later..).
>>       I descended slowly and the brake gained "power" again;  once on a
>>       level
>>       ground I stopped the bike to inspect the damage. The only thing I
>>       could see
>>       was that the area where the brake line connects to the brake,
>>       everything
>>       was squeaky clean (on the right side, the left side was in proper
>>       dirty
>>       condition).
>>       - It was very warm for our region
>>       - I did not abuse the brake
>>       - I had some altitude (3000ft)
>>       Could it be that the brake fluid got "too hot" and finally the joint
>>       let go?
>>       What's your thoughts?
>>       Thanks
>>       Alex
>>
>>       --
>>       --
>>       http://alexfinger.ch for pgp key etc
>>
>>       ------------------------------
>>
>>       Message: 2
>>       Date: Sun, 30 Jun 2019 10:44:27 -0600
>>       From: Art Johnson <arthjohnson270 at gmail.com>
>>       To: GPZ List <gpzlist at lists.micapeak.com>
>>       Subject: Re: Brake woes
>>       Message-ID: <39B2BFE5-3479-477C-B983-A951413F2360 at gmail.com>
>>       Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
>>
>>       Good that you got away without accident.
>>       Any leakage or hose failure would disable the brakes. Fluid boil
>>       might have caused lockup, cooldown release.
>>       Time for brake maintenance, caliper clean, pad inspection, fluid
>>       change, replace banjo bolt washers, any defective items, operation
>>       check.
>>
>>       Sent from my iPhone
>>
>>       > On Jun 30, 2019, at 9:58 AM, Alexander Finger
>>       <af at genevainformation.ch> wrote:
>>       >
>>       > Hello my friends,
>>       > I did not want to let the warmth go without taking the GPZ out for
>>       an
>>       > hour..so I went up the Salève. On top of the Hill the front brake
>>       did not
>>       > free up after breaking; it staid in a blocking position for some
>>       time; I
>>       > pulled the lever a couple of times and with some mechanical noise
>>       the brake
>>       > loosened. And did not work anymore (I could pull the lever, no
>>       resistance).
>>       > I saw smoke around the brake but could not make out any damage (I
>>       could
>>       > only get off the bike later..).
>>       > I descended slowly and the brake gained "power" again;  once on a
>>       level
>>       > ground I stopped the bike to inspect the damage. The only thing I
>>       could see
>>       > was that the area where the brake line connects to the brake,
>>       everything
>>       > was squeaky clean (on the right side, the left side was in proper
>>       dirty
>>       > condition).
>>       > - It was very warm for our region
>>       > - I did not abuse the brake
>>       > - I had some altitude (3000ft)
>>       > Could it be that the brake fluid got "too hot" and finally the
>>       joint let go?
>>       > What's your thoughts?
>>       > Thanks
>>       > Alex
>>       >
>>       > --
>>       > --
>>       > http://alexfinger.ch for pgp key etc
>>       >
>>       ____________________________________________________________________
>>       __
>>       > GENERAL GPZList MAILING LIST INFORMATION:
>>       > This is from the GPZList mailing list. GPZList at lists.micapeak.com
>>       > http://lists.micapeak.com/mailman/listinfo/gpzlist
>>       > You subscribed to this mailing list. Therefore, you solicited all
>>       > mail that you receive from this list. Therefore, ANY mail that you
>>       > receive from this list is, by definition, NOT Spam, and if you
>>       report
>>       > it as such, you are violating the lists.micapeak.com terms of
>>       service.
>>       >
>>       > To unsubscribe, you may send email to
>>       gpzlist-unsubscribe at lists.micapeak.com
>>       >
>>       ____________________________________________________________________
>>       __
>>       > YOUR PERSONAL SUBSCRIBER OPTIONS:
>>       > Unsubscribe or choose new options at
>>       >
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>>       >
>>       ____________________________________________________________________
>>       __
>>
>>       ------------------------------
>>
>>       Message: 3
>>       Date: Sun, 30 Jun 2019 19:49:16 +0200
>>       From: Alexander Finger <af at genevainformation.ch>
>>       To: GPZ List <gpzlist at lists.micapeak.com>
>>       Subject: Re: Brake woes
>>       Message-ID:
>>       <CAKO=xBsVjFM_DPMQxCXqO2i0JqmLdKkqae37=gsqGrU_tskwjA at mail.gmail.com>
>>       Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
>>
>>       I was slow when they blocked. So it's off to the dealer for a brake
>>       job
>>       then..I hope it'll not cost more than the downpayment for a new zzr.
>>
>>       Art Johnson <arthjohnson270 at gmail.com> schrieb am So., 30. Juni
>>       2019, 18:44:
>>
>>       > Good that you got away without accident.
>>       > Any leakage or hose failure would disable the brakes. Fluid boil
>>       might
>>       > have caused lockup, cooldown release.
>>       > Time for brake maintenance, caliper clean, pad inspection, fluid
>>       change,
>>       > replace banjo bolt washers, any defective items, operation check.
>>       >
>>       > Sent from my iPhone
>>       >
>>       > > On Jun 30, 2019, at 9:58 AM, Alexander Finger
>>       <af at genevainformation.ch>
>>       > wrote:
>>       > >
>>       > > Hello my friends,
>>       > > I did not want to let the warmth go without taking the GPZ out
>>       for an
>>       > > hour..so I went up the Salève. On top of the Hill the front
>>       brake did not
>>       > > free up after breaking; it staid in a blocking position for some
>>       time; I
>>       > > pulled the lever a couple of times and with some mechanical
>>       noise the
>>       > brake
>>       > > loosened. And did not work anymore (I could pull the lever, no
>>       > resistance).
>>       > > I saw smoke around the brake but could not make out any damage
>>       (I could
>>       > > only get off the bike later..).
>>       > > I descended slowly and the brake gained "power" again;  once on
>>       a level
>>       > > ground I stopped the bike to inspect the damage. The only thing
>>       I could
>>       > see
>>       > > was that the area where the brake line connects to the brake,
>>       everything
>>       > > was squeaky clean (on the right side, the left side was in
>>       proper dirty
>>       > > condition).
>>       > > - It was very warm for our region
>>       > > - I did not abuse the brake
>>       > > - I had some altitude (3000ft)
>>       > > Could it be that the brake fluid got "too hot" and finally the
>>       joint let
>>       > go?
>>       > > What's your thoughts?
>>       > > Thanks
>>       > > Alex
>>       > >
>>       > > --
>>       > > --
>>       > > http://alexfinger.ch for pgp key etc
>>       > >
>>       ____________________________________________________________________
>>       __
>>       > > GENERAL GPZList MAILING LIST INFORMATION:
>>       > > This is from the GPZList mailing list.
>>       GPZList at lists.micapeak.com
>>       > > http://lists.micapeak.com/mailman/listinfo/gpzlist
>>       > > You subscribed to this mailing list. Therefore, you solicited
>>       all
>>       > > mail that you receive from this list. Therefore, ANY mail that
>>       you
>>       > > receive from this list is, by definition, NOT Spam, and if you
>>       report
>>       > > it as such, you are violating the lists.micapeak.com terms of
>>       service.
>>       > >
>>       > > To unsubscribe, you may send email to
>>       > gpzlist-unsubscribe at lists.micapeak.com
>>       > >
>>       ____________________________________________________________________
>>       __
>>       > > YOUR PERSONAL SUBSCRIBER OPTIONS:
>>       > > Unsubscribe or choose new options at
>>       > >
>>       >
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>>       mail.com
>>       > > You are subscribed at the email address arthjohnson270 at gmail.com
>>       > >
>>       ____________________________________________________________________
>>       __
>>       >
>>       ____________________________________________________________________
>>       __
>>       > GENERAL GPZList MAILING LIST INFORMATION:
>>       > This is from the GPZList mailing list. GPZList at lists.micapeak.com
>>       > http://lists.micapeak.com/mailman/listinfo/gpzlist
>>       > You subscribed to this mailing list. Therefore, you solicited all
>>       > mail that you receive from this list. Therefore, ANY mail that you
>>       > receive from this list is, by definition, NOT Spam, and if you
>>       report
>>       > it as such, you are violating the lists.micapeak.com terms of
>>       service.
>>       >
>>       > To unsubscribe, you may send email to
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>>       >
>>       ____________________________________________________________________
>>       __
>>       > YOUR PERSONAL SUBSCRIBER OPTIONS:
>>       > Unsubscribe or choose new options at
>>       >
>>       http://lists.micapeak.com/mailman/options/gpzlist/af%40genevainforma
>>       tion.ch
>>       > You are subscribed at the email address AF at genevainformation.ch
>>       >
>>       ____________________________________________________________________
>>       __
>>       >
>>
>>       ------------------------------
>>
>>       Message: 4
>>       Date: Sun, 30 Jun 2019 12:30:53 -0600
>>       From: Art Johnson <arthjohnson270 at gmail.com>
>>       To: GPZ List <gpzlist at lists.micapeak.com>
>>       Subject: Re: Brake woes
>>       Message-ID: <D9B3F515-0AA7-4603-867C-A3F9C54ED4D1 at gmail.com>
>>       Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
>>
>>       Hope it works out for you Alex. Fun fast rides for cheap thrills.
>>       I left my Gpz in Venezia....
>>
>>       The GPz is reliable. Hope to do more Euro adventures over the next 5
>>       yrs. Croatia and Rome this Fall. Then Spain, Portugal and S. France,
>>       next. Work north to Sweden, Norway, UK and Ireland.
>>
>>       Bought a 2007 Zx14 (ZZR) for home. The front brakes are so much
>>       better.
>>       Going thru the maintenance routine, coolant, brake fluid change,
>>       sparkplugs, valve shims, air filter. Tires and chain good. Tsukigi
>>       4-1 pipe and ECU reprogram next.
>>
>>       Sent from my iPhone
>>
>>       > On Jun 30, 2019, at 11:49 AM, Alexander Finger
>>       <af at genevainformation.ch> wrote:
>>       >
>>       > I was slow when they blocked. So it's off to the dealer for a
>>       brake job
>>       > then..I hope it'll not cost more than the downpayment for a new
>>       zzr.
>>       >
>>       > Art Johnson <arthjohnson270 at gmail.com> schrieb am So., 30. Juni
>>       2019, 18:44:
>>       >
>>       >> Good that you got away without accident.
>>       >> Any leakage or hose failure would disable the brakes. Fluid boil
>>       might
>>       >> have caused lockup, cooldown release.
>>       >> Time for brake maintenance, caliper clean, pad inspection, fluid
>>       change,
>>       >> replace banjo bolt washers, any defective items, operation check.
>>       >>
>>       >> Sent from my iPhone
>>       >>
>>       >>> On Jun 30, 2019, at 9:58 AM, Alexander Finger
>>       <af at genevainformation.ch>
>>       >> wrote:
>>       >>>
>>       >>> Hello my friends,
>>       >>> I did not want to let the warmth go without taking the GPZ out
>>       for an
>>       >>> hour..so I went up the Salève. On top of the Hill the front
>>       brake did not
>>       >>> free up after breaking; it staid in a blocking position for some
>>       time; I
>>       >>> pulled the lever a couple of times and with some mechanical
>>       noise the
>>       >> brake
>>       >>> loosened. And did not work anymore (I could pull the lever, no
>>       >> resistance).
>>       >>> I saw smoke around the brake but could not make out any damage
>>       (I could
>>       >>> only get off the bike later..).
>>       >>> I descended slowly and the brake gained "power" again;  once on
>>       a level
>>       >>> ground I stopped the bike to inspect the damage. The only thing
>>       I could
>>       >> see
>>       >>> was that the area where the brake line connects to the brake,
>>       everything
>>       >>> was squeaky clean (on the right side, the left side was in
>>       proper dirty
>>       >>> condition).
>>       >>> - It was very warm for our region
>>       >>> - I did not abuse the brake
>>       >>> - I had some altitude (3000ft)
>>       >>> Could it be that the brake fluid got "too hot" and finally the
>>       joint let
>>       >> go?
>>       >>> What's your thoughts?
>>       >>> Thanks
>>       >>> Alex
>>       >>>
>>       >>> --
>>       >>> --
>>       >>> http://alexfinger.ch for pgp key etc
>>       >>>
>>       ____________________________________________________________________
>>       __
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From walkerjl at charter.net  Tue Jul  2 15:17:05 2019
From: walkerjl at charter.net (Jeff Walker)
Date: Tue, 02 Jul 2019 15:17:05 -0700
Subject: Brake woes
In-Reply-To: <mailman.3.1562094003.25661.gpzlist@lists.micapeak.com>
Message-ID: <e30cfd39-b62f-470d-87b1-319a53ebb820@email.android.com>

   Brake temperatures at the pads routinely get past 200C, or 394F. During
   hard continuous braking, like going down a long hill at speed they can
   get to 1000F. 200C is easily hot enough to vaporize condensed water in
   brake fluid after heat transfer through the pad material and caliper
   pistons. All it would take is for a micro drop of water to vaporize to
   make the hydraulics feel spongy. Further, I've seen it happen on a
   poorly maintained car before. The water always condenses at the lowest
   point in the system, and that's also the hottest part of the
   hydraulics, at the piston calipers.
   Unless they've overheated routinely, it's far more likely for the seals
   in a master cylinder to fail than a caliper piston seals. The
   degradation mechanism comes from sliding wear, and the piston calipers
   hardly move at all. The good news is that the master cylinder also has
   the least contaminated fluid at it's seals, as the corrosion products
   migrate down to the calipers. The counterpoint is that the heat at the
   calipers causes hardening of the elastomers in the seals.
   However, that being said, sticking calipers almost always stick in the
   applied direction and fail to retract, vs sticking such that they
   prevent the hydraulic force from squeezing the pads on the rotor. Or if
   the seals are failing, brake fluid leakage is evident.
   Otherwise a master cylinder seals can leak by and fail to produce
   hydraulic pressure with no evidence of leakage. That's what happened to
   my rear master two years ago. Very minimal brake force applied at full
   stomp, then it would fail to retract when I took my foot off, and no
   leakage. Rebuilt it and it's back to perfect.
   In the last 130K+ miles on my GPz I've gone through several sets of
   pads, but I'm still on the original calipers. I always bleed them
   before and after pad replacement, as pressing the pistons back in to
   install the new pads always frees up more gunk to be flushed out.
   New brake lines are always challenging to bleed the first time. My
   metal braided lines both connect at the master cylinder, each having a
   straight run to their respective caliper and eliminating that "Y"
   cylinder above the fender. Much easier to bleed that way.
   Just goes to show the importance of preventative maintenance. I flush
   and bleed the brakes on all my vehicles every two years regardless of
   how often they're used. As a result I very rarely have any issues with
   the brakes outside of normal pad wear. The rate of degradation of the
   brake fluid is mostly time dependent, not mile dependent.
   Sorry for the long winded response, but as a mechanical engineer that
   specialized in maintenance, troubleshooting, and failure analysis of
   far more complex systems I get interested in topics like this.

From af at genevainformation.ch  Tue Jul  2 15:33:19 2019
From: af at genevainformation.ch (Alexander Finger)
Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2019 00:33:19 +0200
Subject: Brake woes
In-Reply-To: <e30cfd39-b62f-470d-87b1-319a53ebb820@email.android.com>
References: <mailman.3.1562094003.25661.gpzlist@lists.micapeak.com>
 <e30cfd39-b62f-470d-87b1-319a53ebb820@email.android.com>
Message-ID: <CAKO=xBuD9Y89enxk0srLfKWTVGs39f0xC5wnLbM6co00bOdMBg@mail.gmail.com>

thanks for the insight :)
I'll keep you guys posted about the progress, we're down to the south of
France next week with the Africa Twin and the GS750,. first..

Jeff Walker <walkerjl at charter.net> schrieb am Mi., 3. Juli 2019, 00:17:

>    Brake temperatures at the pads routinely get past 200C, or 394F. During
>    hard continuous braking, like going down a long hill at speed they can
>    get to 1000F. 200C is easily hot enough to vaporize condensed water in
>    brake fluid after heat transfer through the pad material and caliper
>    pistons. All it would take is for a micro drop of water to vaporize to
>    make the hydraulics feel spongy. Further, I've seen it happen on a
>    poorly maintained car before. The water always condenses at the lowest
>    point in the system, and that's also the hottest part of the
>    hydraulics, at the piston calipers.
>    Unless they've overheated routinely, it's far more likely for the seals
>    in a master cylinder to fail than a caliper piston seals. The
>    degradation mechanism comes from sliding wear, and the piston calipers
>    hardly move at all. The good news is that the master cylinder also has
>    the least contaminated fluid at it's seals, as the corrosion products
>    migrate down to the calipers. The counterpoint is that the heat at the
>    calipers causes hardening of the elastomers in the seals.
>    However, that being said, sticking calipers almost always stick in the
>    applied direction and fail to retract, vs sticking such that they
>    prevent the hydraulic force from squeezing the pads on the rotor. Or if
>    the seals are failing, brake fluid leakage is evident.
>    Otherwise a master cylinder seals can leak by and fail to produce
>    hydraulic pressure with no evidence of leakage. That's what happened to
>    my rear master two years ago. Very minimal brake force applied at full
>    stomp, then it would fail to retract when I took my foot off, and no
>    leakage. Rebuilt it and it's back to perfect.
>    In the last 130K+ miles on my GPz I've gone through several sets of
>    pads, but I'm still on the original calipers. I always bleed them
>    before and after pad replacement, as pressing the pistons back in to
>    install the new pads always frees up more gunk to be flushed out.
>    New brake lines are always challenging to bleed the first time. My
>    metal braided lines both connect at the master cylinder, each having a
>    straight run to their respective caliper and eliminating that "Y"
>    cylinder above the fender. Much easier to bleed that way.
>    Just goes to show the importance of preventative maintenance. I flush
>    and bleed the brakes on all my vehicles every two years regardless of
>    how often they're used. As a result I very rarely have any issues with
>    the brakes outside of normal pad wear. The rate of degradation of the
>    brake fluid is mostly time dependent, not mile dependent.
>    Sorry for the long winded response, but as a mechanical engineer that
>    specialized in maintenance, troubleshooting, and failure analysis of
>    far more complex systems I get interested in topics like this.
> ______________________________________________________________________
> GENERAL GPZList MAILING LIST INFORMATION:
> This is from the GPZList mailing list. GPZList at lists.micapeak.com
> http://lists.micapeak.com/mailman/listinfo/gpzlist
> You subscribed to this mailing list. Therefore, you solicited all
> mail that you receive from this list. Therefore, ANY mail that you
> receive from this list is, by definition, NOT Spam, and if you report
> it as such, you are violating the lists.micapeak.com terms of service.
>
> To unsubscribe, you may send email to
> gpzlist-unsubscribe at lists.micapeak.com
> ______________________________________________________________________
> YOUR PERSONAL SUBSCRIBER OPTIONS:
> Unsubscribe or choose new options at
> http://lists.micapeak.com/mailman/options/gpzlist/af%40genevainformation.ch
> You are subscribed at the email address AF at genevainformation.ch
> ______________________________________________________________________
>

From Sirdondiego at outlook.com  Tue Jul  2 23:19:55 2019
From: Sirdondiego at outlook.com (Don French)
Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2019 06:19:55 +0000
Subject: Brake woes
In-Reply-To: <CAKO=xBuD9Y89enxk0srLfKWTVGs39f0xC5wnLbM6co00bOdMBg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.3.1562094003.25661.gpzlist@lists.micapeak.com>
 <e30cfd39-b62f-470d-87b1-319a53ebb820@email.android.com>,
 <CAKO=xBuD9Y89enxk0srLfKWTVGs39f0xC5wnLbM6co00bOdMBg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <DM6PR15MB2745DBFB4FF9CF9B783796E6B1FB0@DM6PR15MB2745.namprd15.prod.outlook.com>

Thank you for the “Long Winded response.”

It’s always good to be reminded about the how, what, when, where and why maintenance is important.

I’ll be rejuvenating the brake fluid on “Zippy” this weekend.

Ride on!



Sent from Mail<https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for Windows 10



________________________________
From: GPZList <gpzlist-bounces at lists.micapeak.com> on behalf of Alexander Finger <af at genevainformation.ch>
Sent: Tuesday, July 2, 2019 5:33:19 PM
To: Don French
Subject: Re: Brake woes

thanks for the insight :)
I'll keep you guys posted about the progress, we're down to the south of
France next week with the Africa Twin and the GS750,. first..

Jeff Walker <walkerjl at charter.net> schrieb am Mi., 3. Juli 2019, 00:17:

>    Brake temperatures at the pads routinely get past 200C, or 394F. During
>    hard continuous braking, like going down a long hill at speed they can
>    get to 1000F. 200C is easily hot enough to vaporize condensed water in
>    brake fluid after heat transfer through the pad material and caliper
>    pistons. All it would take is for a micro drop of water to vaporize to
>    make the hydraulics feel spongy. Further, I've seen it happen on a
>    poorly maintained car before. The water always condenses at the lowest
>    point in the system, and that's also the hottest part of the
>    hydraulics, at the piston calipers.
>    Unless they've overheated routinely, it's far more likely for the seals
>    in a master cylinder to fail than a caliper piston seals. The
>    degradation mechanism comes from sliding wear, and the piston calipers
>    hardly move at all. The good news is that the master cylinder also has
>    the least contaminated fluid at it's seals, as the corrosion products
>    migrate down to the calipers. The counterpoint is that the heat at the
>    calipers causes hardening of the elastomers in the seals.
>    However, that being said, sticking calipers almost always stick in the
>    applied direction and fail to retract, vs sticking such that they
>    prevent the hydraulic force from squeezing the pads on the rotor. Or if
>    the seals are failing, brake fluid leakage is evident.
>    Otherwise a master cylinder seals can leak by and fail to produce
>    hydraulic pressure with no evidence of leakage. That's what happened to
>    my rear master two years ago. Very minimal brake force applied at full
>    stomp, then it would fail to retract when I took my foot off, and no
>    leakage. Rebuilt it and it's back to perfect.
>    In the last 130K+ miles on my GPz I've gone through several sets of
>    pads, but I'm still on the original calipers. I always bleed them
>    before and after pad replacement, as pressing the pistons back in to
>    install the new pads always frees up more gunk to be flushed out.
>    New brake lines are always challenging to bleed the first time. My
>    metal braided lines both connect at the master cylinder, each having a
>    straight run to their respective caliper and eliminating that "Y"
>    cylinder above the fender. Much easier to bleed that way.
>    Just goes to show the importance of preventative maintenance. I flush
>    and bleed the brakes on all my vehicles every two years regardless of
>    how often they're used. As a result I very rarely have any issues with
>    the brakes outside of normal pad wear. The rate of degradation of the
>    brake fluid is mostly time dependent, not mile dependent.
>    Sorry for the long winded response, but as a mechanical engineer that
>    specialized in maintenance, troubleshooting, and failure analysis of
>    far more complex systems I get interested in topics like this.
> ______________________________________________________________________
> GENERAL GPZList MAILING LIST INFORMATION:
> This is from the GPZList mailing list. GPZList at lists.micapeak.com
> http://lists.micapeak.com/mailman/listinfo/gpzlist
> You subscribed to this mailing list. Therefore, you solicited all
> mail that you receive from this list. Therefore, ANY mail that you
> receive from this list is, by definition, NOT Spam, and if you report
> it as such, you are violating the lists.micapeak.com terms of service.
>
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> gpzlist-unsubscribe at lists.micapeak.com
> ______________________________________________________________________
> YOUR PERSONAL SUBSCRIBER OPTIONS:
> Unsubscribe or choose new options at
> http://lists.micapeak.com/mailman/options/gpzlist/af%40genevainformation.ch
> You are subscribed at the email address AF at genevainformation.ch
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______________________________________________________________________
GENERAL GPZList MAILING LIST INFORMATION:
This is from the GPZList mailing list. GPZList at lists.micapeak.com
http://lists.micapeak.com/mailman/listinfo/gpzlist
You subscribed to this mailing list. Therefore, you solicited all
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From schnowz at att.net  Wed Jul  3 06:00:03 2019
From: schnowz at att.net (schnowz)
Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2019 13:00:03 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: GPZList Digest, Vol 142, Issue 2
References: <1701706921.2388758.1562158803523.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1701706921.2388758.1562158803523@mail.yahoo.com>

Most likely caused by dirt and corrosion on the wheel pistons and calipers. Crap accumulates outside the dust seals and the Pistons can also become pitted. It starts as occasional sticking that gets worse with time, especially if you ride in Winter (salt) or wet weather.

Pete S